Can fantasian people love?

[Luna]

The book says, at a certain point, that fantasian creatures can't "love".
But I think that Atreiu and Fucur really loved Bastian: they helped him and did everything for him.
This is a contraddiction... what do you think about that?

[Marta]

I don't actually remember that part from the book that says that fantasians can't love. Could you remind me that or give me some clue where exactly that was in the book cause I'd like to think about it Thanks.

[Gaya]

The part of the book that mentions that Fantasians can't love is the part where Bastian stays with Dame Eyola. I remember her mentioning that love does not exist in Fantasia, but there is a prophecy that someday humans will bring love to Fantasia. It has to do with the Water of Life, which might symbolize love.

I just ran downstairs to get my book and found this quote:

Dame Eyola: "There are a few creatures in Fantastica, so I'm told, who get to drink of the Water of Life. But no one knows who they are. And there is a prophecy, which we seldom speak of, that sometime in the distant future humans will bring love to Fantastica. Then the two worlds will be one. But what that means I don't know." p. 367

I think I may have figured it out! Remember how Atreyu and Falkor go to the Water of Life after the quest because Moon Child's servants brought them there? Maybe they can love because they drank the Water of Life, and that's why they are Bastian's friend. That's really cool. I love how things in the story are tied together without being obvious.

[Marta]

Thanks, I remember now.

So only Fantasians who drank the Water of Life can love? And what about Hynrek and princess Oglamar? He seamed to love her. Does it mean that he also drank the Water of Life, or maybe he couldn't realy love her. Hmm, that would be sad if there was no love in Fantasia, I don't wanna believe that

[Luna]

So only Fantasians who drank the Water of Life can love? And what about Hynrek and princess Oglamar? He seamed to love her.

And Atreiu was ready to do everything to save Fantàsia, even before drinking the water of life.

[Gaya]

Those are good points. Hmm... it seems that Atreyu's motives for saving Fantasia were more out of fear for his life and the lives around him than out of love. He was the prototype of the hero, perhaps, too. I'm not sure if that has to do with love or not. Maybe I'm just rambling.

Hero Hynreck's "love" for Princess Oglamar seemed more like immature, obsessive infatuation to me. He trained for ten years for the sole purpose of impressing her, and there was no mention of concern for her welfare. Hynreck seemed only interested in winning her, not caring about her. The only reason he wanted to save her from Smerg was because he knew it would make her want him. Which may be why when he did win her, he didn't want her anymore. He seemed only to want to proove that he could win her.

Of course, I guess there is the possibility that Michael Ende could have created accidental contradictions.

[Falkore]

I haven't read the book but in the movie when Artax is sinking Atreyu tells him he loves him.

[Gaya]

In the book, Atreyu does not say he loves Artax when he sinks. He is not pleased, but the incident is not nearly as dramatic as it was in the movie.

[themnoria]

Yeah, he only said that in the movie because movies exaggerate every little conflict to get us to care. Usually it doesn't work.

[Mvek]

Yeah, he only said that in the movie because movies exaggerate every little conflict to get us to care. Usually it doesn't work.

But with Artax it is in the movie very good. I just did not understand all the lines, Atreju is telling, when Artax had stopped. It was strange (about that it is hard to him...) and why it did not happen to Atreju too, when he was crying for Artax. In the book, it is said better. And there is the sentence about Auryn, which saves Atreju here from sinking.

But the book is here probably too not sad:-).

[puck]

The question of love is an interesting one. I'd like to think on this.

When I read the bit about Fantasians not being able to love, and humans bringing love to Fantasia "some day", this did seem strange to me, and seemed like it might contradict other passages or implications in the book.

I do not think authors (or translators) are infallable, but must assume this is too clear a statement to be some mistake. Michael Ende has a message here. What is it?

Clearly, it must be tied into the very nature of how he conceives Fantasia, its existence, its indivisible relationship to the "human" world, and Bastian's ture purpose for being there.

Dame Eyola explains that her adoration of Bastian is, for her, not actually love; she's doing it because she wants to, because it pleases her, but not "really" out of love. Interesting.

This parallels Bastian's error with the Shalmoofs (if I recall their name correctly). He doen't think out his story very well at all, making them a menace to society, and they later point out that he did what he assumed was a "good deed" really just to make himself feel beneficent, even though he ALSO does actually feel sorry for them when they are the Archa.. um I forgot their names - the crying guys. But he feels bad about them out of guilt for his (possibly) inventing them as miserable beings. But then, isn't wanting to make them less miserable a good atonement? The answer is complicated.

I love that Ende has an example of this dynamic, because it touches the core of the question of altruism. A lot of "good deeds" are all for show, essentially advertising purposes, even when they really do help. Weathy companies or individuals often have made huge philanthropic gestures and more than mere gestures, benefiting society greatly, but there is often (and even perhaps in some cases primarily) the additional effect that lots of peole now feel positively toward that organization. Even if, for instance, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation (honestly, a random example) was created out of a true and deeply felt altruism (which I assume is the case), it is also true that the existance of this institution is advertised... and is NAMED "the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation," you see what I mean.

In the same way, Eyola implies that her unconditional efforts to make Bastian feel loved is only a limited portion of the more complex issue of "real" love.

We know the water of life, which definitely is at least connected with true deep emotional, spiritual, and physical healing, is also connected to "real" love. Maybe it IS love, or maybe just allows it to flourish... and yes, Atreyu and Falkor have experienced this, so I suppose this is why (I think Ende tries to show) they do really love Bastian and each other... but why did Ende set this up as a special case? Why is love not a regular commodity in Fantasia?

I think it's related to the memory/history thing, and Fantasians' stated inability to "really" create as well. Through various scenes and discussions, Ende shows that, since they are all invented creatures (whether invented by Bastian, his subconscious, the Empress, Shakespeare and Koriander earlier, whatever), they do not have a true past or fully real present, or any "real" way to decide their own future.

This idea is also dealt with in the play "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead," in which these two side characters in Hamlet lounge about thinking of existentialist philosophy between their Hamlet scenes, and seem to half-notice things like the fact that they have no past, no true character development, and that they only exist and and die for mere plot reasons in someone else's story.

Meanwhile, the Empress, who is the power of creation itelf - or sort of, anyway - is NOT actually Fantasian, nor can she enter AURYN and the waters of life... I expect the Old Man cannot either, since he is like her (I can't think of the right name for him - if she is creation, he is, um, making things no longer changeable - death is transformation, so he's not death - well, I'll have to think more on that later).

Argh, I forgot the text when we are told why the Mnpress cannot go into AYRYN... assuming the words of the English translation were correctly chosen... but my impression is that she cannot go there for two reasons. 1) it is the interface of the worlds. She IS in a sense, Fantasia - not a denizen of Fantasia - so cannot leave herself. And/or 2) she is the water of life, or rather it is another aspect of the same creative force that she is, so if that's right, she cannot go there as the Empress because she is already there as the water. I'm not sure.

Atreyu's quest is undertaken out of fear and concern for the world, desire to protect and repay his people, who are his family, a chance to prove himself, devotion to the Empress (who in a way IS himself and all his family and his world), and naturally a desire not to lose the beautiful environment where he lives, not to mention his life. Does this all add up to the same thing as love of Fantasia? I might say yes, but why does Michael Ende say no? Again, what is he really telling us?

Note that Ende has him lose AURYN, and he suddenly feels directionless and hopeless; not just in contrast to losing the Empress' guiding force, though that's a big part of it. Not just because he is no longer shielded from the Nothing, though this is naturally related. Not just for plot reasons so that Gmorg does not immediately recognize him. It is also so that he will be in greater danger, bringing Bastian closer to him emotionally. Even though the Empress needs Bastian to enter Fantasia - in a sense acknowledge his own creative power personified by her - even though she does this through Atreyu, whom she is guiding by giving him a purpose through AURYN - it is necessary for her to let go of Atreyu in order to assure Bastian will fully grasp him - be invested in him - because now Atreyu has lost his guiding light, just like Bastian. Now both of them need to find it again, which brings them even closer to each other. After that, when Atreyu comes before the Empress - even though she was always with him in AURYN - only then is Bastian close enough to be there as well - even though he, too, always was.

I was noting that Fantasians themselves are said to have no real creative ability and have no real past - and Ende clearly shows that without a past to move from, visitors to Fantasia also cannot go forward, so become Old Emperors - they were not careful and lost their own true selves inside. They become, says the monkey, Fantasians...!

So Fantasians don't have a true self? Aha! Remember Atreyu's true self was Bastian! That was because Bastian was reading him... Bastian, while reading, was the creative force that animated the text that describes Atreyu and his quest. When reading, you take in the text, and your own brain interperets this into your personal experience of the story - not mine, not Michael Ende's. Bastian was "being" Atreyu while reading.

So Fantasians are just ideas, dreams; not truly "living" entities. What they have in them is YOU to make them alive. When you read the book, it is YOU who interperets what they are feeling, especially when it is not stated. What was the blue djin experiencing when reporting to Bastian? Awe? Pride? Concern? What did YOU assume was his emotional state as you read the words? That's what he was feeling, because of you.

So they cannot love, but WE love for them. EVERY TIME a human enters Fantasia, we bring to them the water of life. EVERY TIME we return to our external world, we have brought back the water to our own lives.

This I think is very important to what Michael Ende is saying.

[JirkaR]

Yes. These are quite deep and interesting thoughts, and I agree almost entirely. I'm thinking along the same lines whenever I read the book, and it's one of the most fascinating aspects for me. Thanks to puck for the awesome post above - it's going even further than I usually go with my thoughts, and it's worded much better than my insuficient English ability can ever do.

My view goes like this: As both Uyulala and Gmork mentions, regular fantasians are just figures in a story, doing only what they were invented for. This sometimes includes being sent to a great quest by the Empress (like Atreyu), or even an illusion of love - like Eyola herself states, it wasn't really love, it was just what Bastian needed and wished for. Still, it's just imagination, just an illusion. Obviously, it's closely related to the inability to create anything new/original, as mentioned in Amarganth and elsewhere. Also note that fantasians never, ever, go against someone wearing Auryn.

And now, Atreyu and Falcor were highly rewarded by the Empress after their quest, being allowed to drink from Water of life. They probably didn't realize, how unique the reward was, and what it really meant for them, until much later. But after that, they became REAL friends to Bastian, to save him in the end. They came up with own ideas, and they even decided to act against Bastian (with the best intentions, obviously) - that means against the holder of Auryn! They even speculated about going against the will of the Empress, if necessary. This is quite unheard of in Fantasia (as Ende shows it), and although it might be questionable whether Atreyu was really able to take the Auryn by force, or whether the Auryn-given protection would kick in somehow, if Atreyu didn't hesitate, for me it's still indication that Atreyu (and Falcor) gained something mysteriously special when they drank the Water. Not only renewed health, plus the ability to love (as people in this thread already discovered in Eyola's hint) - I guess that they got some sort of own soul, got somehow more generally out of the limitation of fantasians being "just figures in a story". (Having no bodies, they still can't go out to the real world, but that's not the point here.)

As I see it, that's also why they - and only they - were able to help Bastian in the end, and guide him to the Water of life. The Water says in the book, that nothing from Fantasia can enter the place guarded by two snakes - and indeed, Bastian loses everything he got in Fantasia, even his clothes, as he walks in. But however, Atreyu and Falcor are allowed in by the snakes, and they don't disappear - did you notice that? Just as if they were NOT mere fantasians anymore, as if their existence was somehow deeper/independent. And then, there's the Atreyu's promise to finish all the stories for Bastian. This would be impossible for any other fantasian, given the fact that they can't create anything new. But still, the snakes accept the promise, more or less acknowledging that Atreyu has this ability.

This makes Atreyu and Falcor even more special and interesting in the story, for me (and even more tempting to extend their story in my imagination).

[Mvek]

Hm, really interesting notions. I still think, these two can enter our real world, if Bastian would wish it, think of it. But I will have to pay more attention to it when reading book for the second time.

[Mvek]

As JirkaR wrote, it reminds me Fantasia as some type of "holodeck" if you know Star Trek:-). Or concept present in many sci-fi stories, movies, series, novels... some big "amusement park" which acts to pleasure the visitor. But of course, Fantasia in TNES does not take this role, but behaves similarly. Everyone in Fantasia except Empress is like programmed. This, I know, leads to take Fantasia as a machine (or if you have sci-fi novel Strata by Terry Pratchett, like a whole artifficaly built world), I myself was a bit sad when reading this part and considering this similarity (not the similarity, but the concept of Fantasie like a machine made for the human). But this makes it more understandable, the whole idea of Fantasia world.

The question is, do we want to understand Fantasia? Isn't the magic in not knowing, how and why does it work?

[JirkaR]

some big "amusement park" which acts to pleasure the visitor. But of course, Fantasia in TNES does not take this role, but behaves similarly. Everyone in Fantasia except Empress is like programmed. This, I know, leads to take Fantasia as a machine (or if you have sci-fi novel Strata by Terry Pratchett, like a whole artifficaly built world), I myself was a bit sad when reading this part and considering this similarity (not the similarity, but the concept of Fantasie like a machine made for the human). But this makes it more understandable, the whole idea of Fantasia world.

It would be sad to see Fantasia like that, indeed. But in my opinion, this similarity is just coincidental. I don't exactly know the mentioned sci-fi counterparts, but Fantasia is not a machine, not something independent, CREATED (by whom?) for amusement. Fantasia is embodiment of our own imagination, so it's more like a mirror of deep layers of our own minds. It's not some interactive amusement machine, it's a view of the real thing (which also introduces the "neverending" part about TNES). It lives our life, and we live it's life (like the Nothing is tied to problems in real life and vice versa), because it's all the same thing, just seen from various angles. This also makes Fantasia real, alive, mysterious, and complex just like we are ourselves. Fantasians are not really programmed, they just mirror a mind, so they're not able to interact with that same mind independently, not able to act beyond the boundaries of that mind's thoughts and imaginiation.

Which also brings the big question whether Fantasia is a mirror of oneself's mind, or of all mankind, or a mixture of both views. And what exactly Atreyu and Falcor became after they drank the Water, who the Empress is (and the Old Man of Wandering Mountain - similar to mr. Tubal from "Prison of Freedom")... These are difficult ones, and we may easily find ourselves discussing things like psychology, or existence of God. Or just accept the existence of a mysterious layer in TNES.

The question is, do we want to understand Fantasia? Isn't the magic in not knowing, how and why does it work?

I think, that we can't really understand it, because of the above, not beyond the idea that it's like a mirror. Understanding what the mirror shows (and how) would mean to fully understand our own mind/soul. No one is able to understand his/her own mind to this extent. And here, at the boundaries of knowledge, the realm of magic begins, and always will...

I still think, these two can enter our real world, if Bastian would wish it

I think they can't. Fantasia mirrors Bastian's mind in a way, so his wishes may (or may not) have the power inside. It's like a hirearchy real world -> Bastian -> Fantasia -> fantasians. Pulling fantasians up to his own level and above would not be possible even for Bastian, because his wishes can't have the power there. He's not ruling the real world (the world he lives in, that is) like a God, no. TNES is based on the mirror-like magic as I see it, creating it's own consistent (=true in this sense) world. However unusual this story is, it still have an unbreakable border between reality and fiction (assuming that Bastian enters Fantasia just mentally, while his body lies sleeping or whatever at the attic - I always thought of it this way, and it doesn't make his adventures in Fantasia any less real and impressive). Breaking this border would require another, new and fundamental magic. And the result? Either the "reality" Atreyu would enter is actually another fiction (so we just created another part of Fantasia and entered it through one of the many gates Mr. Koreander mentions), or the story of Atreyu in REAL reality (if we really mean it) will be a lie. Nothing new - we're just back at the two paths between the worlds, as explained by Gmork and the Empress.